The COGWA Winter Family Weekend was a blast from a fellowship perspective. I even ran into old friends I haven't seen in over 20 years. This happens because so many of us have been playing musical chairs in the splinters since the 90's. I would never dismiss anyone's experience and criticism of the church but for my own experience, the average member in these churches is a God-fearing Christian that is just trying to do what they believe is pleasing to God and usually has a genuine affection toward others. I have never had a major conflict with anyone in the churches of God, including the ministers (save one, years ago). Many are just nice people that are fun to be around and party with, including the ministers. (Again, my own experience)
The theme at the WFW was "Unity" and I definitely felt unified with the brethren as I talked with old friends and made new acquaintances. There was a general sense among all the brethren I spoke to that all the competing churches of God are generally the same. (This would not include the personality cults like Pack and Flurry) But this was, as I expected, not going to be the message of unity that would come from COGWA HQ.
[WARNING: What follows is going to come across as very harsh and cynical but only because I believe the churches of God need a heavy dose of horribly tasting medicine and a prescription for a cure. Major "trigger warning" for those who love the church as I do but are still incapable of dealing with cognitive dissonance and facing reality.]
[WARNING: What follows is going to come across as very harsh and cynical but only because I believe the churches of God need a heavy dose of horribly tasting medicine and a prescription for a cure. Major "trigger warning" for those who love the church as I do but are still incapable of dealing with cognitive dissonance and facing reality.]
I have spent years in LCG being told at Feasts, winter weekends and must-plays from HQ that "We are NOT all the same!" All this did was prompt me to study and determine if this was actually true. I found most of the claims that made us different to be petty and the ones made that were seemingly important, I sometimes determined LCG to be the splinter in error. That being said, the cry for unity and all speaking the same thing from the ministry has always been a subjective cluster-
How much unity does it take to qualify to be unity until it's not and then there must be division for the sake of unity? If you ask the average member, it seems the bar is set much lower than those who claim to have the rule over them. The ministry would argue that such a low standard is set by lukewarm sheep. Maybe the standard is set too high by graceless shepherds concerned more about self-preservation.
In the very first seminar I sat in on, David Johnson made a not-so-veiled attack on 3 LCG teachings. The message was, don't go looking at LCG because:
1. They have an inordinate emphasis on the Ezekiel warning.
2. Dick Ames has a personalized version of the wedding supper. (Johnson tries to relate this to the rapture)
3. Doug Winnail thinks the "falling away" may be a general and global rejection of Western Civilization rooted in Christian ethics.
After this, came the usual threats and warnings of being deceived, even by "brethren" and family members (very unifying). He even concluded with a classic "Ames" tactic by shaming people who are not consuming organizational literature and webcast productions.
Regardless of one's position on those three points, what do they have to do with the gospel and the need for salvation?
Next up was a seminar by Joel Meeker who set up the classic straw man argument "proving" church government using Hebrews 10:25. He goes on to say that you must have a pastor and that we are commanded to attend holy convocations and have no choice. I haven't found any commanded assemblies in the New Covenant, Joel.
Joel then creates a list of "duties" for church administration and a list of "duties" for the members. He said the church is an organization and the organization organizes (brilliant). The church supports doctrine and protects us dummies from tricky men. When people leave the organization, it is always over "quarky" doctrine (I see what you did there, Joel). The church instructs, strengthens, comforts, encourages, protects, anoints and even provides physical needs because sheep faithfully tithe. Wow Joel! I guess when you put it that way, where would we be without you?
The duties of the sheep are to pray, study, fast, repent, think (how did that get in there) meditate, plan, and discern. This is where he took the time to flatter everyone in COGWA because they had the "spiritual discernment" to recognize UCG had "called good, evil and evil, good" and went with the holy men of COGWA who enacted division. He finished this list by warning us that everyone gets hurt by the church at some point but it is the duty of sheep to suck it up, persevere, watch your attitude and avoid a root of bitterness.
He concludes by attacking "those who would say that we [churches of god organizations] are all the same" using a real doozy of a straw-man argument. He goes to Revelation 2-3, points out they are all church of God and asks, does that mean you would not care which one you were in...that any one would do...are they all the same? (well played, Joel...well played) This obviously implies that the church really is an organization that we would call COGWA and to go sniffing around anywhere else would be spiritual suicide. Yep...unity be the theme.
Next up, the captain of the ship, Jim Franks. Let's see. The smack-down was already put on LCG and UCG. Who would be next?
Franks starts by asking what one body means and what does unity look like. Ever the masters of double-speak, he humbly claims not to know. And then, I kid you not, he references a class offered at their Foundation Institute that explains all the doctrinal differences between all the churches of God!
Take note: Barrett says division in the churches of God come particularly from those at the "center [HQ] of the organizations" and the "influential elite." Preaching unity to the laity, and most of the field ministers, is preaching to the choir. We get it better than you! Unity is a message that must be preached TO these HQ administrations, not BY these HQ administrations. “Divisions” in Jude 19 is APODIORIZO: which means, false teachers that cause division.
It's funny but, agree with him or not, at least Joe Tkach had fundamental change as reason for blowing up the cult. What are the reasons that Jim Franks, Gerald Weston and Victor Kubik have for continuing to promote division? What fundamental, irreconcilable differences exist between them?
Jim Franks mentions that he read a new book on the history of the Worldwide Church of God. He didn't give the title but based on the sermon, I would guess he was referencing "The Fragmentation of a Sect: Schism in The Worldwide Church of God" written by David V. Barrett, PhD in Sociology. This caused him to wax nostalgically about the good ole days like when, for example, in 1967, the whole church was unified in praying God would heal Loma Armstrong (and then she died a week later). He said the church always had issues through the 60's, 70's, 80's and early 90's but "it was still one body!"
In a shaken voice, he described what it was like being bullied by the Tkach administration that was changing everything. When he told them he did not understand the new teachings, they told him to just preach it first and you will come to believe it later. He compared his firing to being put on a cattle train headed for Auschwitz! Is this the response you would expect from a man that fears God more than losing his paycheck? I have actually lost jobs or lost job opportunities because of the Sabbath and never once felt I was on my way to Auschwitz. It truly amazes me to see it on display, how earth-shattering it was for (some) ministers to face financial difficulty but make light of it when brethren have routinely lived it, often expressing great faith in going through it (even if misplaced). Who did you think you were, Elijah on the run for his life?! Maybe you felt like you were in a cattle train headed for Auschwitz because that is how the top down-hierarchical structure with a narcissist pope you thrived in, operated for decades.
He goes on to argue that in order for the church to be unified, it must be unified in doctrine, purpose and behavior. But his main emphasis was almost exclusively on doctrine as he took time to attack Tkach and the changes they made and attributing the reason for the changes was because the new WCG did not value truth. I thought, you may not have agreed with the changes but you cannot say the changes were because they did not value truth. What is truth? They certainly no longer valued Herbert Armstrong's truth, to be sure.
It is clear that to Jim Franks, unity is everyone in one corporate entity and he lays all the blame for all the splinters at the feet of Joe Tkach. But as I pointed out in my post, "Who Causes Division" David Barrett says all splits in WCG to the present various churches of God could only be caused and were caused by the ministry. On pages 208-209:
In a shaken voice, he described what it was like being bullied by the Tkach administration that was changing everything. When he told them he did not understand the new teachings, they told him to just preach it first and you will come to believe it later. He compared his firing to being put on a cattle train headed for Auschwitz! Is this the response you would expect from a man that fears God more than losing his paycheck? I have actually lost jobs or lost job opportunities because of the Sabbath and never once felt I was on my way to Auschwitz. It truly amazes me to see it on display, how earth-shattering it was for (some) ministers to face financial difficulty but make light of it when brethren have routinely lived it, often expressing great faith in going through it (even if misplaced). Who did you think you were, Elijah on the run for his life?! Maybe you felt like you were in a cattle train headed for Auschwitz because that is how the top down-hierarchical structure with a narcissist pope you thrived in, operated for decades.
He goes on to argue that in order for the church to be unified, it must be unified in doctrine, purpose and behavior. But his main emphasis was almost exclusively on doctrine as he took time to attack Tkach and the changes they made and attributing the reason for the changes was because the new WCG did not value truth. I thought, you may not have agreed with the changes but you cannot say the changes were because they did not value truth. What is truth? They certainly no longer valued Herbert Armstrong's truth, to be sure.
It is clear that to Jim Franks, unity is everyone in one corporate entity and he lays all the blame for all the splinters at the feet of Joe Tkach. But as I pointed out in my post, "Who Causes Division" David Barrett says all splits in WCG to the present various churches of God could only be caused and were caused by the ministry. On pages 208-209:
"But in a family of churches where top-down authority has always been the norm...members were expected to follow their ministers."
"...it is primarily ministers who have actively left one church to join or to found another, and in many cases they took their members with them."
"...it is a feature of established sects that schism comes only from the divisions among the influential elite within each movement; no other person is sufficiently influential to cause division..."
"Schism must thus be from the ministerial ranks, and in particular from those at the center of the organization; the laity are too receptive and docile (accustomed to obedience) to initiate schisms, and have no opportunity to preach heresy, or to challenge organizational arrangement."
Take note: Barrett says division in the churches of God come particularly from those at the "center [HQ] of the organizations" and the "influential elite." Preaching unity to the laity, and most of the field ministers, is preaching to the choir. We get it better than you! Unity is a message that must be preached TO these HQ administrations, not BY these HQ administrations. “Divisions” in Jude 19 is APODIORIZO: which means, false teachers that cause division.
It's funny but, agree with him or not, at least Joe Tkach had fundamental change as reason for blowing up the cult. What are the reasons that Jim Franks, Gerald Weston and Victor Kubik have for continuing to promote division? What fundamental, irreconcilable differences exist between them?
Then, just like Johnson, in a spirit of unity, he laid out 3 differences between COGWA and COG7D that justifies being divided:
1. They reject British-Israelism
2. They reject the annual holy days
3. They believe it is "the" day of salvation instead of "a"
Again, I will let you decide if this is of any salvational consequence.
I want to conclude with some things Mark Winner said in his seminar because I believe it gets to the root problem with the churches of God. Mark says in order for us to be unified, we must be less interested in our own ideas and more interested in God's ideas. I have been around long enough to know that "God's ideas" is code for what HQ determines is God's ideas.
He went on to actually say at a Winter Family Weekend where unity was the theme, that "focusing on what we have more in common takes us away from what God would have us to know." Really, Mark? Focusing on what unifies us separates us from God?
The one thing I heard all week that rang most true is when Mark said "unity and arrogance cannot coexist." Well, God bless you, Mark! That is exactly why division will always be unity in the eyes of those beholden to a corporate business model.
Peter told the brethren to grow in the "grace and knowledge" of Jesus Christ. Because the Adventist Movement has been Gnostic from it's inception, it has an inordinate focus on knowledge (and foreknowledge) and has fallen flat on it's face concerning grace. Paul said if he had all knowledge and prophecy but had not love, he had nothing. Grace is the key ingredient needed for true unity because grace understands that everyone is not in the same place concerning knowledge at any given time. Each person is a unique library of knowledge and understanding unto themselves that grows daily. Knowledge "puffs up" in and by itself but grace allows people to be where they and others are in the learning process without judgment and condemnation. Grace is what enables us to work out our own salvation, individually. Grace is what makes way for us to dwell peaceably with all men and enjoy one another in a spirit of unity, despite which splinter we attend. And maybe most importantly, grace is what enables us to actually learn from someone else and God forbid, even change our minds.
Knowledge, even "right" knowledge, without grace can be a stumbling block for those looking to embrace that knowledge and can cause offence. You know what Jesus said about being offensive.
He went on to actually say at a Winter Family Weekend where unity was the theme, that "focusing on what we have more in common takes us away from what God would have us to know." Really, Mark? Focusing on what unifies us separates us from God?
The one thing I heard all week that rang most true is when Mark said "unity and arrogance cannot coexist." Well, God bless you, Mark! That is exactly why division will always be unity in the eyes of those beholden to a corporate business model.
Peter told the brethren to grow in the "grace and knowledge" of Jesus Christ. Because the Adventist Movement has been Gnostic from it's inception, it has an inordinate focus on knowledge (and foreknowledge) and has fallen flat on it's face concerning grace. Paul said if he had all knowledge and prophecy but had not love, he had nothing. Grace is the key ingredient needed for true unity because grace understands that everyone is not in the same place concerning knowledge at any given time. Each person is a unique library of knowledge and understanding unto themselves that grows daily. Knowledge "puffs up" in and by itself but grace allows people to be where they and others are in the learning process without judgment and condemnation. Grace is what enables us to work out our own salvation, individually. Grace is what makes way for us to dwell peaceably with all men and enjoy one another in a spirit of unity, despite which splinter we attend. And maybe most importantly, grace is what enables us to actually learn from someone else and God forbid, even change our minds.
Knowledge, even "right" knowledge, without grace can be a stumbling block for those looking to embrace that knowledge and can cause offence. You know what Jesus said about being offensive.
Did you notice in Joel's list of duties, the brethren are not to be easily offended and to suck it up but there was nothing about the administration having a duty to not be offensive? Christ has a stern warning for those who cause offence in Matthew 18.
In Matthew 20:25-28, Jesus provided the model necessary for the proper functioning of the church that would organically suppress the always-present effects of arrogance, greed and abuse. WCG, LCG, UCG and COGWA have all chosen to directly disobey Christ and establish organizations He specifically warned them against establishing.
The context of Jude is a stern warning to be on the lookout for false teachers and leaders that cause division for they (Verse 11) “have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit…” Add money to the mix and we now have a very toxic soup of arrogance, greed and abuse that largely goes unchecked every time you leave human power unchecked.
Again, I ask, what fundamental, irreconcilable differences exist between LCG, UCG, COGWA and even COG7D? In the business world, competitors often come from within an existing business where they learned the business. The competitor goes across the street and establishes a competing business that is fundamentally the same but with the "belief" that they are a little better or they have improved the product or service. There is no fundamental difference in the product or service, only the belief by the competition that they can perform the same service or produce the same product better or cheaper to increase profit margins. Every corporate entity is filled with a certain number of employees that believe they are better suited to lead and run the company. So they begin the climb of the corporate ladder or strike out across the street to compete.
And of course, the other driving factor to compete is the realization that the guy at the top is taking the largest cut, making money off the labor of those under him. There is nothing wrong with this per se, but is this something God would want as motivation in the "body of Christ?"
Businesses incorporate several methods to try and keep their best employees from becoming the competition or leaving to work for the competition. One of them are team building retreats. This is where the business throws a team-building party complete with seminars designed to propagandize and fun events to whip up endorphins in hopes that it will unify the help amongst themselves and with HQ while widening the gulf between the competition. By the time the retreat is over, it is hoped that those capable of competing are too happy to put in the work to compete and that they are convinced that the existing competition is inferior and not worthy of their effort.
Every business exists to get a certain percentage of your income in their pocket. Can you think of a business more lucrative than one that is able to siphon upwards of 30% or more from each customer's total income with no money-back guarantees, no product-performance expectations and the backing of a god who will rain down punishment on anyone who puts their hands to their corporate plow-share only to turn back? A business that is protected by the government, pays no taxes and is not required to make a profit, show a return on investment or present any positive fruits to justify existing?
The unbiblical structure of the organizations and the unbiblical collection of tithes is supported by a false unity rooted in the arrogance of special knowledge. A ministry dependent on money will always market division as unity to protect the corporate entity. The church is not a business to be owned and controlled by wolves on Wall Street but that is what Herbert created; his own Information Marketing business cloaked in his own personalized Bible-speak. That cannot and never will fulfill the definition of the "body of Christ."
In Matthew 20:25-28, Jesus provided the model necessary for the proper functioning of the church that would organically suppress the always-present effects of arrogance, greed and abuse. WCG, LCG, UCG and COGWA have all chosen to directly disobey Christ and establish organizations He specifically warned them against establishing.
The context of Jude is a stern warning to be on the lookout for false teachers and leaders that cause division for they (Verse 11) “have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit…” Add money to the mix and we now have a very toxic soup of arrogance, greed and abuse that largely goes unchecked every time you leave human power unchecked.
Again, I ask, what fundamental, irreconcilable differences exist between LCG, UCG, COGWA and even COG7D? In the business world, competitors often come from within an existing business where they learned the business. The competitor goes across the street and establishes a competing business that is fundamentally the same but with the "belief" that they are a little better or they have improved the product or service. There is no fundamental difference in the product or service, only the belief by the competition that they can perform the same service or produce the same product better or cheaper to increase profit margins. Every corporate entity is filled with a certain number of employees that believe they are better suited to lead and run the company. So they begin the climb of the corporate ladder or strike out across the street to compete.
And of course, the other driving factor to compete is the realization that the guy at the top is taking the largest cut, making money off the labor of those under him. There is nothing wrong with this per se, but is this something God would want as motivation in the "body of Christ?"
Businesses incorporate several methods to try and keep their best employees from becoming the competition or leaving to work for the competition. One of them are team building retreats. This is where the business throws a team-building party complete with seminars designed to propagandize and fun events to whip up endorphins in hopes that it will unify the help amongst themselves and with HQ while widening the gulf between the competition. By the time the retreat is over, it is hoped that those capable of competing are too happy to put in the work to compete and that they are convinced that the existing competition is inferior and not worthy of their effort.
Every business exists to get a certain percentage of your income in their pocket. Can you think of a business more lucrative than one that is able to siphon upwards of 30% or more from each customer's total income with no money-back guarantees, no product-performance expectations and the backing of a god who will rain down punishment on anyone who puts their hands to their corporate plow-share only to turn back? A business that is protected by the government, pays no taxes and is not required to make a profit, show a return on investment or present any positive fruits to justify existing?
The unbiblical structure of the organizations and the unbiblical collection of tithes is supported by a false unity rooted in the arrogance of special knowledge. A ministry dependent on money will always market division as unity to protect the corporate entity. The church is not a business to be owned and controlled by wolves on Wall Street but that is what Herbert created; his own Information Marketing business cloaked in his own personalized Bible-speak. That cannot and never will fulfill the definition of the "body of Christ."
So the COGWA business retreat was fantastic. I got an endorphin fix from the fellowship. The adult beverages flowed late into every night, including the sabbath. As far as the seminars go, I have no clue how successful they are on the brethren. What I hope is only few brethren are making their decisions on which COG to attend based on petty doctrinal differences. It is more probable those decisions are (nowadays) locally oriented and being based on where family members are, where friends are, where kids are so that our kids have friends. Who is providing more opportunities for the kids and who is throwing the best parties. I think this is blow-back from years of forcing brethren to live in a continuous state of urgency, never allowing people to be apart of life "out there." Never allowing us to take root in our communities, build church halls and actually have opportunities to love our neighbors.
Future seminars, sermons and feast messages will try to convince us making corporate decisions based on that kind of criteria is Laodicean or worse, showing ones self to be a "tare among the wheat." Whatever. The messages were disappointing as expected. I just didn't expect them to be that so blatantly bad! But I wonder. Does this show how "puffed up" and obnoxiously confident they are in the "unity" they have manufactured or does it expose just how fearful they are of the statistics showing the movement is continuing to dwindle with deaths out-pacing births, with no new prospects and the next generation saying, "I'm out"?
Either way, I expect the ante to continue to rise. More corporate retreats will be implemented with bigger and better bells and whistles. More camps, more dances, more adult beverages. Maybe a Hezekiah-type declaration to keep the Feast for two weeks! We are witnessing a church of God "Cold War" to see who will out-spend the competition to sop up the remaining tithe-payers of a dying movement. The winner will be the corporate entity that gives back the most dollars they whored for.
My advice: The failing business model of post-Herb splinters don't need a "prophet" (sorry, Bob). They need "The Profit" Marcus Lemonis, who rescues small businesses on CNBC because you are definitely not the body of Christ. That distinction is reserved for those spirit-led individuals that exemplify fruits of the Holy Spirit, always precluding organization. Dr. Meredith used to yell, "You can't put God in a box!" It's true! And yet, WCG and all the splinters have been trying to lay the body of Christ to rest in corporate coffins for decades. Hello?
V
Hello, I just went back and reread your post. I saw it over on banned the other day, and there seems to be some speculation as to who I am in the comments section, which I find amusing. Though I am sorry that it seemed to derail more substantive discussion of your post.
ReplyDeleteI missed about the first ten minutes of Joel's speech, and so missed the first couple of points for duties of the "church". It is revealing that according to your comments above he states that the church is an organization, and I would agree that in the traditional catholic and more modern protestant view, this is true. This however is not true of the original ekklesia which Jesus Christ established. His reference was to a community or assembly of people, not a human organization. It may be a small detail to some, but it is where I believe we jump the track, and where our thinking on the issue begins to get muddled. It is also how we allow men to lord it over us in their quest to "organize" the organization. It is an interesting thought that on paper you can create an organization and call it a church, even without people, but you can't have the body of Christ or an assembly without them. I know I have discussed this before, and don't want to beat a dead horse, but it seems to come up over and over when you are attuned to it.
I also appreciated your comments about grace and knowledge. And while I still believe fundamentally in certain cog doctrines concerning Sabbath, holy days, etc, I think that the idea of grace has been given short shrift within the cog movement. We are human beings, and we are never all going to be on exactly the same page on every issue. There is a reason that I still attend cog activities, rather then say a Baptist or Catholic convention, but there are degrees of agreement, and we must allow for that as human beings. It is false unity and not allowing for growth to simply march in lock step with some human figurehead in an organization.
Anyway, I found it interesting that we attended the same activity. Glad to hear you had fun in spite of some of the messages. I would say we can agree on the fact that the messages could have been a lot better, and that unity was directly or indirectly equated with agreeing with everything that comes from a corporate headquarters office, at least in some of the seminars. I did not get to all of them, so cannot speak for all of them. So, for now we continue to resort to anonymity and on line forums to speak more openly. Still, it is nice to know that someone else in the room was also experiencing LCG deja vu. :) Concerned Sister
Good to hear from you. It is unfortunate how trolls show up rather quickly to derail any thoughtful conversation in the comments section over there but it is what it is. You posted another great response. I was hoping I could ask you if I can copy/paste it over to here. Doing so preserves comments I want to keep in the context over here. Also, could you email me? There are things I would like to say without giving myself away publicly, sometimes. And I can ask you when I want to copy something you post. If you could, just create an anonymous email yourself and email me. If you don't want to, that's fine too. It sure feels like you are all alone when you listen to some of that stuff and no one dares talk about it later. Glad you were there refusing the kool-aid too. I'm sure there are others. I know COGWA has positioned itself as the catch-all, statue-of-liberty like beacon for all those who leave other splinters over various abuses ,complaints, etc. But I have been suspicious. WFW only verified to me that its a hoax. They are all essentially the same and they all need to change.
DeleteConcerned Sister said:
ReplyDelete"It has been my experience that when a COG group begins to hyper focus on "unity", it is a clear indication that there is definite disunity among the ranks. It is sad to see this in COGWA though, because for many it has become the default organization to fellowship or attend with because at least in the early years of the group, such emphasis on "my group is the best because..." was downplayed, and people from a variety of backgrounds and who had been hurt or damaged in other groups felt comfortable there.
I was also present at the WFW this year, and while I had some issues with most of the messages outlined above, I felt Joel Meeker's message was particularly troubling, and caused me to experience deja vu of my days in LCG. The whole "you made the right decision" speech and the message of "suck it up, cause we've all been hurt" smacked of both arrogance as well as a lack of empathy for someone else's pain and suffering. It also displayed the general state of disconnect that exists between the "clergy" and the "laity" of most of these organizations. It is too bad though, because for many I know COGWA is their last hold out after experiencing abuse, pain, suffering, and disillusion in other organizations. To put it like someone else told me recently, she said "I like COGWA because they don't attack or talk badly about the other organizations." It seems that this statement is no longer true, and will not bode well for the organization in the long run, because it essentially makes them just like all the others. None of these men seem to be able to grasp the concept that if you want to be viewed as "Philadelphian" you must show an attitude of love and humility, rather than one of boasting and arrogance.
There is also a rising issue that will ultimately affect all the COGs, and that is the views of the younger generation within these groups. These kids have been yanked and pulled in every direction by their parents and others as people have been forced to repeatedly switch groups and allegiances. They have been splintered to the point that they are crossing cog lines in order to fellowship with others their own age who at least have a semblance of their own experiences and basic beliefs, and they are finding that to a large degree the differences between the groups has been overblown by the powers that be, and amounts in many cases to issues of personality, grudge holding, and playground squabbles. It is difficult to sit and listen to speeches on "unity" when the church movement you have grown up in is anything but unified. They can smell the hypocrisy. Many of the younger generation think nothing of crossing corporate lines and attending social functions across those lines. They are forming their own networks and connections whether their elders like it or not. They are also questioning and beginning to challenge traditional church stances on everything from interracial marriage to music to the way church services are done. They are sitting with their smart phones and computers and the most up to date Bible software available and they are fact checking. They are no longer willing to just take some guy's word for it, and they are not buying an appeal to "tradition" if that tradition cannot be backed up Biblically. Some have given up all together and are exiting the bigger groups, while others are biding their time with the knowledge that the days of the old guard are numbered, and sooner or later they will have the opportunity to make the changes they think need to be made. The older generation is threatened by this and there is stress and friction beginning to form. These older people feel that the battles they fought are not appreciated, the traditions they hold dear are not respected, and the walls they have built are being dismantled. It has them a bit rattled, and it shows."
Concerned Sister
I hate to keep repeating myself but there are hundreds, maybe even thousands who have come to the same conclusions as you but twenty or more years ago. Check out:
ReplyDeletehttp://rockvalley.co/welcome-video/
and
https://commonfaithnetwork.org
Kevin McMillen
Kevin. I understand that. But the truth is there are still over 40,000 people in Armstrong cults who have not been reached by those who have figured it out over 20 years ago. So what have they been doing? What outreach is being done by those common faith affiliates? CGI seems to be a major part of that. How honest are they about the past? GTA? HWA? SDA roots? Kevin, I don't know. I am sincerely asking. You can troll me all you want about just being another "bitch fest" blog but it's one more resource out there that might help someone. Instead of wanting me to conform to existing affiliates who figured it out a long time ago, how about you start another blog and get another person to start another blog and so on. Maybe a flood of anonymous blogs that get the word out on the inside of organizations in their respective local areas is what needs tried. I don't know. Remaining anonymous allows me to stay on the inside. I don't know what else to do. This may be just a huge waste of my time other than what it does for me personally; to really study and know what my view is. And I sure as hell am not doing it for attention or recognition. Why is it these headquarters at LCG, UCG, COGWA, etc., all seem more concerned about what gets on Banned by HWA than what comes out of places like the Common Faith Network? What's been more effective? Just asking.
DeleteSo, you don't think we've been effective? What a laugh. How many times over the last twenty years were you sitting comfortably in your organization of choice and told that the "Independents" were not able to do a work. Or the "Living Room Church of God is just a bunch causing division"?
ReplyDeleteWe couldn't get to you back then because you weren't willing to listen.
Just because you don't see the effects of the Independent movement over the last twenty years doesn't mean we're not doing anything.
How many months has your blog existed? Six, eight, what has it accomplished. Nothing! Anonymous blogs are pointless! I haven't been anonymous throughout these twenty years and I still fellowship among the groups.
In fact just a few months ago a fellow in LCG, who once thought LCG was all that and a bag of chips, told me how much he admired me because I recognize all in the groups as members of Gods church. When I first talked to him a couple years ago he was shocked when I told him that I wasn't a member of LCG nor would I ever become a member.
You think we haven't done anything? You sound like Elijah thinking that you are all there is.
You haven't seen because you refused to look, just as you refuse to look today. You can mock the Common Faith Network all that you want, but if you really took the time to see what they stood for then you'd see that the Independents have been far from fruitless.
When I went Independent in 1992 there was maybe a couple hundred, now there are a few thousand. How do you think that happened? We stood up against the minister class way back then and made it easier for you to stand up now!
I'm no troll, and yes this site has become just another bitch fest!
Kevin McMillen
Morgantown WV
You might want to check out this list of Feast sites for 2019, you'll notice that the majority are not affiliated with the larger groups like COGWA, UCG, LCG, etc. Most of them are Independents.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.feastgoer.org/feast19.html#
Open your eyes and maybe you'll see!
It's obvious that you didn't spend any time looking at either site or you wouldn't ask what outreach has been done. Those sites are just two of scores of independent groups who are changing things and n the cog. As I said, instead of knocking us why not be honest with yourself and ask yourself, if an independent talked to you twenty years ago about how the clergy class isn't biblical, or that tithing is not biblical, what would you say?
ReplyDeleteSo instead of asking us what were we doing, ask yourself the same question. Or ask, why weren't you willing to listen? You know that you knew that independents existed ten, twenty years ago. What were your thoughts about us? Were you ready for the deep thinking that hopefully you're doing now?
Why wasn't your mind open towards independents back then? Do you actually think 50, 100, 500 anonymous blogs will make a difference? What a laugh.
Fifteen years ago, after being independent for ten years or more, when my kids reached their teens we started fellowshipping with UCG in order for my kids to have friends in the church. (BTW those friendships are still strong today even though they are now split between COGWA, UCG while my kids remaining n Independent and willing to fellowship with any of them, but their friends don't cross organizational lines to fellowship)
My wife and I made a few friends too, and they all knew that I was Independent and recognized all who kept the Sabbath and Feasts as part of God's church.
After several years I had a problem with the local minister who wanted to control what I posted online. Needless to say that even after years of knowing what Independents stood for, how I hadn't changed in doctrines. They are all still within their own little comfort zones of COGWA or UCG. So tell me, what good is being an example if the ones you're shining your light on aren't ready to wake up?
You may not like me telling you how you've came to the party late, but at least you're here, and there are thousands who just aren't ready to make the change yet. No matter how many blogs there are. I can guarantee that there is at least one independent cog in every major city in the U.S. all ready for the slow trickle of people waking up and leaving the orgs.
Instead of bitching about us not doing enough you should be thankful that we stood up against it all. How easy do you think it was to go independent 27 years ago? Not as easy as today. Hell, LCG and UCG both allow independents to fellowship among them. That sure didn't happen much 25 years ago. It did depend upon the company man in charge. Some were more lenient.
Again, you don't like me calling it a bitch fest? Too bad!